Re: Religion Thread

by Maestrosanti Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 1:12

iliander wrote:“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

It says gay men were/are/will be punished, not that lesbians will (some laughter ensued).

by **peugeot407** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 1:38

I've yet to encounter the first bit of scripture that unambiguously speaks out against pornography, masturbation, sex to its own end and homosexuality, so I would disagree, ili...

Just to illustrate, let's have a wider quote from Romans 1 rather than take these few sentences out of context:

They know about God, but they don't honor him or even thank him. Their thoughts are useless, and their stupid minds are in the dark. They claim to be wise, but they are fools. They don't worship the glorious and eternal God. Instead, they worship idols that are made to look like humans who cannot live forever, like birds, animals and reptiles. So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen.

God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.

Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That's why they do all sorts of indecent things. They are evil, wicked, and greedy, as well as mean in every possible way. They want what others have, and they murder, argue, cheat, and are hard to get along with. They gossip, say cruel things about others, and hate God. They are proud, conceited, and boastful, always thinking up new ways to do evil.

Now, I ask you, what does this quote speak out against? Is it homosexuality or is it paganism? I would argue it's the latter, and as such this quote doesn't speak out against homosexuality itself, but against the reasons why these people had homosexual intercourse, which, judging from the first alinea, seems to be as a form of pagan ritualism. I can't say that with absolute certainty, of course, and the reason why they did what they did may have been different, but one thing does seem certain to me, there's nothing here to speak out against homosexual acts per se.

peugeot407

by Gohar Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 5:30

Maestrosanti wrote:It's funny the bible prohibits male homosexuality, but says nothing against lesbianism really.

Well considering I'm no scholar (Although I do love religion and try my best to follow it) I'll just give my opinions in light of my religion (Islam)

The most prominent example is the people of Lut (AS), the people of Sodom (I have discussed this story with peugeot407 in the NE forums, the guy has interesting opinions and perspectives). The people of Sodom were punished for their homosexuality as they (through this act) corrupted the way God created us.

"And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."(Surah Al-Naml, Verse 166)
The above ayah (verse) of the Quran regarding the people of Sodom suggest that similar or the same punishment may have been given if there were lesbians rather than gays but God knows best.

However it is true that the Injeel (Gospel/Bible that is the book revealed to Jesus (pbuh)) and the Quran (the book revealed to Muhammad (pbuh)) both focus against gayism rather than lesbianism because that is an event which has been punished for and is shown in the story of Lut (AS) whereas other forms of disrupting the way God created including lesbianism are equally sinful as it was not meant to be so.
In the Quran it is said that
Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition. (Surah-Al Nahl verse 90)
The arabic word used in the verse is "Al-Fahshah" which means every shameless activity. And this is not restrict to man doing it with another man or a woman doing it with another woman or man doing it with a woman (in the form of zina that is sex without marriage or sex with someone other than one's spouse).
A woman is only allowed to have sexual relationship with her husband. Not with with anyone else be it man or woman.

by **iliander** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:07

peugeot407 wrote:I've yet to encounter the first bit of scripture that unambiguously speaks out against pornography, masturbation, sex to its own end and homosexuality, so I would disagree, ili...

Just to illustrate, let's have a wider quote from Romans 1 rather than take these few sentences out of context:

They know about God, but they don't honor him or even thank him. Their thoughts are useless, and their stupid minds are in the dark. They claim to be wise, but they are fools. They don't worship the glorious and eternal God. Instead, they worship idols that are made to look like humans who cannot live forever, like birds, animals and reptiles. So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen.

God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.

Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That's why they do all sorts of indecent things. They are evil, wicked, and greedy, as well as mean in every possible way. They want what others have, and they murder, argue, cheat, and are hard to get along with. They gossip, say cruel things about others, and hate God. They are proud, conceited, and boastful, always thinking up new ways to do evil.
Now, I ask you, what does this quote speak out against? Is it homosexuality or is it paganism? I would argue it's the latter, and as such this quote doesn't speak out against homosexuality itself, but against the reasons why these people had homosexual intercourse, which, judging from the first alinea, seems to be as a form of pagan ritualism. I can't say that with absolute certainty, of course, and the reason why they did what they did may have been different, but one thing does seem certain to me, there's nothing here to speak out against homosexual acts per se.

peugeot407

loooool you gotta be kidding

"God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds."

conclusion: men having sex with men and women having sex with women is evil and unnatural.

according to christianity the ONLY good form of sex is between husband and wife, sex is meant as a way of creating offspring (between husband and wife, so that the offspring can also be raised properly) and strengthening the connection between husband and wife. this will result in a strong family structure, which means strong human race.

also this:

by Gohar Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:28

iliander wrote:according to christianity the ONLY good form of sex is between husband and wife, sex is meant as a way of creating offspring (between husband and wife, so that the offspring can also be raised properly) and strengthening the connection between husband and wife. this will result in a strong family structure, which means strong human race.

Well, it is I believe well known and even Islam says that in humans is a great desire for food and sex so, although it is true even in Islam that sex is only halal (lawful) if it is between a husband and wife, without marriage or with someone other than your husband or homosexually is haram (unlaeful) and is punishable.
Now sex is mainly for having children but we are not Masoom (innocent and pure of sin) like the Prophets were and obviously desire sex. Masterbation is also haram (unlawful). Islam allows halal sex even for pleasure (as long as the limits are not transgressed) and it has rules to prevent any need for haram sex. One such rule is that a wife must have sex whenever a husband desires (as long as the wife is able to and no obligatory act such as prayer will be missed due to the sex). Another rule is that a husband must please the wife as long as she desires as women enjoy sex longer than men (or so I have heard/read). These laws ensure both the husband's and the wife's sexual desires are satisfied and neither indulge in haram activities and both are happy Smile

@iliander sorry bro but I can't see whats after the "also this:", is it a youtube video?

by **AOE_Fan** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:32

I've always found a bit odd of people quoting certain parts of Bible to prove their point of view "correct". Although I completely allow people to practice their religion the way they want without offending other people, I don't think a book that is about 2000 years old should be kept as the most important thing of Christianity. The thing is, if religions won't evolve along with the people, their importance will slowly fade which isn't a good thing. Reinterpreting the same old Ancient texts doesn't really help people with their everyday lifes, which I think should be the main goal of religions. At the very least, religion and the law should always be kept separate, something few individuals don't often understand. There are some really delusional persons that want Sharia laws to be in Finland and the world simply doesn't work that way. I'm not sure if this applies to a broader list of religions but this is something that I'm at least aware of.

by **peugeot407** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:46

Apart from being quite unwilling to ditch the Bible (I do believe it's the written word of God, after all), I mostly agree with Matti. Church and State should remain completely separated...

As for ili; you've clearly got a different interpretation of this text than I do, but that's fine, and in fact, is exactly what I tried to illustrate. The same piece of text can yield two completely different interpretations, neither less valid than the other. There is no singular way to interpret the Bible or pieces of it (or rather, there isn't to us humans; I should imagine God does know), if there was there wouldn't be dozens of different Christian denominations.

peugeot407

by Gohar Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:58

We'll history has proven that Islam is complete even in terms of government. The Muslims were formidable and highly successful till the third Khalifa of Islam because Islam was closely followed. The further Muslims have gone from religion, the weaker they have gotten.
Interestingly this downfall is not due to the consistency in religion but rather due to the growing distance from religion (at least for Islam). Of course there are extremists and even old-fashioned people adamant that religion should be so and so and not in any other way. Islam is to be completely implemented in every part of life but it doesn't prevent a truly Islamic nation from advancing in terms of technology e.t.c. For example, just cuz Islam is against dirty videos doesn't make television haram (unlawful).
PS although the Quran is about 1400 years old, till now many discoveries (by Muslims and even non-muslims) are being made through it. Also people who properly study Islam tend to accept it and most people who leave Islam and embrace another religion due so because the modern Muslims in general have become very bad (as I have said very few people follow Islam properly).
Also, I hope I am not offending anybody, if I am then pls tell me.

by **iliander** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 6:58

Gohar wrote:Well, it is I believe well known and even Islam says that in humans is a great desire for food and sex so, although it is true even in Islam that sex is only halal (lawful) if it is between a husband and wife, without marriage or with someone other than your husband or homosexually is haram (unlaeful) and is punishable.
Now sex is mainly for having children but we are not Masoom (innocent and pure of sin) like the Prophets were and obviously desire sex. Masterbation is also haram (unlawful). Islam allows halal sex even for pleasure (as long as the limits are not transgressed) and it has rules to prevent any need for haram sex. One such rule is that a wife must have sex whenever a husband desires (as long as the wife is able to and no obligatory act such as prayer will be missed due to the sex). Another rule is that a husband must please the wife as long as she desires as women enjoy sex longer than men (or so I have heard/read). These laws ensure both the husband's and the wife's sexual desires are satisfied and neither indulge in haram activities and both are happy

@iliander sorry bro but I can't see whats after the "also this:", is it a youtube video?

desire for food must be corrected from young age. you must honor the food for its nutritional value. usually good taste means good nutrition anyways, red meat, fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, all tastes fantastic and is packed with great nutrition.

it would be bad if we do not desire sex in any way. we gotta learn the mental strength to suppress it and learn the ability to put it on ignore mode and switch it back on for woman. remember the type of sexual desire you get from porn is NOT the right type. it is completely different from the actual sexual desire of hugging, kissing, and fking a beautiful fertile woman. and yes masturbation wastes life force and destroys connection from the source.

about those sex laws yeah i maybe agree.

yeah it's a youtube vid bro

AOE_Fan wrote:I've always found a bit odd of people quoting certain parts of Bible to prove their point of view "correct". Although I completely allow people to practice their religion the way they want without offending other people, I don't think a book that is about 2000 years old should be kept as the most important thing of Christianity. The thing is, if religions won't evolve along with the people, their importance will slowly fade which isn't a good thing. Reinterpreting the same old Ancient texts doesn't really help people with their everyday lifes, which I think should be the main goal of religions. At the very least, religion and the law should always be kept separate, something few individuals don't often understand. There are some really delusional persons that want Sharia laws to be in Finland and the world simply doesn't work that way. I'm not sure if this applies to a broader list of religions but this is something that I'm at least aware of.

religions may not evolve with people. if people evolve in right direction and follow right path the laws/guidelines will remain the same. ideally religion and the law is the same. law is a PART of religion, if law and religion is separate it means one of the two is false. we in times of disconnection from god so a lot of people need religion to find out the truth. i think you don't need a religion at all and every person should naturally know all these things of what is right and good but we raised and educated in a way it sometimes tells the opposite how how it should be.

@PEUGEOT:

oh come on man that is bullshit. the text says what it says and nothing else. don't deny the truth.

by Gohar Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 7:06

Well porn and masturbation are haram unlawful. Honestly in Islam even anal (disgusting Shocked

) is haram putting the male part in the mouth (I think its called blow-something) is also haram. Considering there are no ahadith (sayings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as such a thing was not done at that time) regarding putting the male part in the mouth, it is considered makruh (undisirable) and should be avoided at all costs and it is considered haram anyways.

Also regarding those who think zina (having sex with anyone other than one's legal married spouse) is ok then I'll narrate an incident:
A guy comes to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and requests to be allowed to do zina. Th Prophet (pbuh) asked that would he (the man) allow his mother or sister to do zina with someone else? The man replied no.

by **iliander** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 7:17

Gohar wrote:Well porn and masturbation are haram unlawful. Honestly in Islam even anal (disgusting ) is haram putting the male part in the mouth (I think its called blow-something) is also haram. Considering there are no ahadith (sayings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as such a thing was not done at that time) regarding putting the male part in the mouth, it is considered makruh (undisirable) and should be avoided at all costs and it is considered haram anyways.

Also regarding those who think zina (having sex with anyone other than one's legal married spouse) is ok then I'll narrate an incident:
A guy comes to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and requests to be allowed to do zina. Th Prophet (pbuh) asked that would he (the man) allow his mother or sister to do zina with someone else? The man replied no.

yes anal sex is idiotic. without porn almost nobody would think about it. why the fk would you ignore a beautiful vagina. I agree oral sex is also bad only vaginal sex will result in the proper exchange of energy.

by ACN45trooper Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 8:11

Oh no! AGAIN THIS ILIANDER??? GROW UP!

-I QUIT

by **iliander** Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 8:18

ACN45trooper wrote:Oh no! AGAIN THIS ILIANDER??? GROW UP!

-I QUIT

what the fuk

by Gohar Tue 3 Dec 2013 - 22:07

What was that about? Such deeds are a part of the bad nature of man and must be avoided. We should accept that such evils do exist and must be abstained from.
We are merely giving our opinions and discussing matters in the light of religion. As long as the discussion is healthy, relevant, humble and respectful; I find nothing wrong with the discussion nor with Iliander's comment although I do think we are discussing too much about sex.

by **peugeot407** Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 0:48

I think the main thing here is not whether anal and oral intercourse, extramarital sex, masturbation and the consumption of pornography are wrong, because, as would seem obvious, opinions on that are going to differ. What seems more important is what would happen if, say, iliander were to become become prime minister and have a majority of like-minded people backing him up in parliament. Would he outlaw all these things, or would he stick to his personal abstinence but allow others to act on their own beliefs and opinions, even if they completely differ from his?

peugeot407

by **iliander** Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 1:10

peugeot407 wrote:I think the main thing here is not whether anal and oral intercourse, extramarital sex, masturbation and the consumption of pornography are wrong, because, as would seem obvious, opinions on that are going to differ. What seems more important is what would happen if, say, iliander were to become become prime minister and have a majority of like-minded people backing him up in parliament. Would he outlaw all these things, or would he stick to his personal abstinence but allow others to act on their own beliefs and opinions, even if they completely differ from his?

peugeot407

I would outlaw these things:

- rape
- cheating
- bestiality
- incest
- pedophilia
- gay intercourse
- prostitution
- pornography

I can't outlaw oral and anal sex because that is something the partners have the decide themselves. I can't outlaw masturbation either because it is your own decision to weaken yourself. I can't outlaw extramarital sex because it is the man and woman's decision if they are "one" and imo you don't need an official "marriage" for this. The smart people will abstain from those things.

by **peugeot407** Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 1:47

Well, what can I say, I had expected worse...

peugeot407

by **iliander** Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 2:07

peugeot407 wrote:Well, what can I say, I had expected worse...

peugeot407

doesn't mean schools shouldn't advice kids to not masturbate though

by ACN45trooper Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 8:09

Wait.....what? "bestiality" WHAT YOU MEAN?

by **iliander** Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 9:20

ACN45trooper wrote:Wait.....what? "bestiality" WHAT YOU MEAN?

it means humans having sex with animals.

by ACN45trooper Wed 4 Dec 2013 - 9:38

Oh, yeah, that should be outlaw, AGREE.

by **iliander** Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 6:13

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/senate-approves-bill-legalizes-sodomy-and-bestiality-us-military

EVIL SCUM... SATANIC PIECES OF SHIT... i'm raging

they seriously need to overthrow their satanic government and kill those disguised demons

by **peugeot407** Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 6:51

I think that's entirely correct. It is, to say the least, peculiar if an employer should concern itself with the sex life of its employees...

peugeot407

by **iliander** Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 6:58

peugeot407 wrote:I think that's entirely correct. It is, to say the least, peculiar if an employer should concern itself with the sex life of its employees...

peugeot407

good luck with your satanism goals of 2014.

by Gohar Thu 5 Dec 2013 - 7:30

@Iliander no need to piss off peugeot407 after all hes the guys who made this epic mode (hes cool although his arguments arent very well made right now, he made a better discussion in the NE forums)

@Peugeot407, firstly whats your real name?
Secondly, the President of a state must take it up as a responsibilty to rule and guide his people justly. Everyone must be judged equally and the punishment should be on the basis of the person who is offended.
Given this, it is the President's (and as a whole, the government's) responsibility to guide the people rightly for example in a Christian country acts such as masturbation, illegal sex, bestiality (that is disgusting, why would someone do that?), rape, prostitution, etc must be punished according to Christian law or in case a Muslim is the victim, then according to Muslim law or if a Jew is the victim then according to Jewish law and so on.
So unless Christianity allows all this vices (which I definitely believe it doesn't), they must be punished. You gave your example now I shall give my mine. Would a proper parent/proper guardian not care about his/her child's social and sexual life, so is the case of a leader of a nation.

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